Not signed in (Sign In)

Vanilla 1.1.9 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.

    •  
      CommentAuthorjb
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2009 edited
     
    What are the chances that the split-screen view might one day be (able to be) used to show two different documents?
    •  
      CommentAuthormax
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2009
     

    The chances are quite bad, to be honest. The problem is not a technical but rather a conceptional one. We have not yet found an easy, unobstrusive and obious way to have two documents shown at the same time. However, we are open to all ideas!

    •  
      CommentAuthorjb
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2009 edited
     
    Thanks for your reply.

    Not sure I understand the conceptual problem nor why displaying two different documents is more obtrusive than displaying two parts of the same document.

    In any case, it's true that the preview pane is quite handy for showing another document, and if need be I think I can get by using it.

    (I've used Scrivener for the past couple of years, and there I find the ability to display two different documents in split-view quite handy. Of course it can't display two parts of the same document!)

    If you'd be willing, I'd be happy to hear more about the conceptual problem.

    Thanks
    jb
    •  
      CommentAuthorfehnman
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2009
     

    In Ulysses, what you see underneath a tab is an open document. If we showed two documents underneath the same tab, we would need to find a new way to let the user know which document is active (not so hard, switch tab titles), and which documents are open (multiple tabs, some hold one, some two documents).

    That's just one of the conceptual problems.

    •  
      CommentAuthormax
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2009
     

    Here's another: Documents in Ulysses also consist of more than just a text, it's also notes, excerpt, metadata, etc. The question is how much you want to see of this. Just two documents on top of each other have barely the space for the notes pane alone. If then you only show parts but in parallel, how do you make this view quickly adjustable. If you only show this stuff for one document, how do you make obvious for which one, how do you access this for the other and where do you show which documents it are.

    •  
      CommentAuthorjb
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2009
     
    Ah yes, this helps. Thanks.

    In my naiveté and ignorance I ask: Why not simply allow the view with focus to determine which tab is enlarged (showing which document is active), and to determine which notes, excerpt, metadata, etc. are displayed?

    Perhaps I'm too thick to understand. Sorry if this is the case.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfehnman
    • CommentTimeSep 20th 2009
     

    This might be ok for the active document, at least on first thought, but it's not ok for inactive documents (small tabs).
    If you have six documents open, you want to see these six documents and not just three tabs with the titles of the documents that just happened to be the last one edited the last time you activated the tab. This gets really bad when opening a project with lots of open documents.

    Of course, I can think of several ways to work around these problems, but I wonder if the added benefit of having two documents open side-by-side for editing is worth the troubles (and confusion for those that don't need this feature).

    •  
      CommentAuthorben
    • CommentTimeSep 21st 2009 edited
     
    I think this would need to be a completely separate "synopsis mode" (similar to the "Search and Replace" mode or the "Exporter" mode already existing, which are also separate from the "tabbed documents mode").

    This mode (or view) would need to be called from the menu. And one would then need to open the documents one wishes to compare from the browser (no tabs! just these two documents).

    Maybe these two documents could even be side by side rather than stacked on top of each other? That's how a synopsis is usually organized visually. Notes and such could be at the bottom, then. Interestingly, this might also allow for using one document to store "comments" on another one.

    This solves all the problems mentioned above, I think, in the sense at least that it would allow you to start developing a vision for this mode from scratch.

    Would also avoid confusion for those who don't want to use it because they would never enter this new mode.

    While I think this is, conceptually, how it should be done, it still remains debatable whether it's worth the effort....

    Does this make sense?
    •  
      CommentAuthorjb
    • CommentTimeSep 21st 2009 edited
     
    I imagined—somehow wrongly, it seems—that it could work like this:

    Each open document has a tab.
    Any of these documents could appear in either of the two windows (if split-screen is invoked).
    The window with focus determines which document is active (enlarged tab) and this document’s metadata, notes, etc. would be displayed.

    I didn’t imagine that tabs are ‘tied’ to a window. If that is the case, I see the difficulty. But if it isn’t the case, it seems that the idea above could work. No?

    If this set-up should prove possible, it would allow the display of either two views of the same document or views of two different documents.

    Sorry to go on so long if I’m just barking up the wrong tree.

    Ben's idea is also appealing.

    Thanks
    •  
      CommentAuthorfehnman
    • CommentTimeSep 22nd 2009
     

    @jb: As I said, it's not so much a problem with the active tab (the enlarged tab, as you say).

    But just imagine having ten tabs. One is active, holds two documents -- not a problem. But what about the other nine? How would you even know how many of these tabs hold more than one document? And how should we show the state (modfied/saved) for the document that's not in focus?

    Look, let's say the topmost document is active and modified. The tab shows its name and a dot. You then select the document at the bottom. This one is saved. The tab shows its name but no dot. You then switch to another tab. You edit the document there. You quit Ulysses. You come back the other day, open your project -- you'll have two tabs open, but three documents. You wouldn't know, of course, because Ulysses only shows two tabs. One tab shows "saved", but it's not true, because it holds another document which, in fact, is "modified".

    This is just one of the many (many) conceptual problems. Sure, with one tab open, it's no problem at all, but some folks have twenty open tabs...

    ben's idea is nice, though I don't understand why it could be called "synopsis". Care to elaborate?

    •  
      CommentAuthorben
    • CommentTimeSep 23rd 2009
     
    Yes, about calling it a "synopsis" --- I don't know if my usage of the word would be appropriate in English.

    But I know you guys do speak some German :)

    In German, "Synopse" is a term used in literature studies, most commonly, I think in connection to the bible.

    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synopse

    (Quoting from that article: "Eine Synopse oder Synopsis, weniger gebräuchlich Synoptik, (von altgriechisch sýnopsis „Gesamtschau“, „Zusammenschau“, „Entwurf“, „Überblick“, syn- „zusammen“, opsis „das Sehen“) nennt man im weiteren Sinne eine Gegenüberstellung oder vergleichende Zusammenfassung gleichartiger Daten und Texte in zwei oder mehr Dokumenten.")

    In particular, it's quite common to have a "synopsis edition" of the gospels of Matthe, Luke, and Mark, because they are similar enough so that it makes sense to print them side by side ("Die parallele Anordnung der synoptischen Evangelien wird kurz als Synopse bezeichnet").

    That's not quite the same as "comparing two versions of the same document", but close enough, I think.

    And it sounds kind of catchy, doesn't it? :)

    Best
    Ben
    •  
      CommentAuthorjb
    • CommentTimeSep 23rd 2009
     
    fehnman wrote:
    "But just imagine having ten tabs. One is active, holds two documents -- not a problem. But what about the other nine? How would you even know how many of these tabs hold more than one document? And how should we show the state (modfied/saved) for the document that's not in focus?"


    Some of my confusion seems to come from my being new to Ulysses.
    I didn’t know that one tab could hold more than one document.
    I’ve looked in Help for an explanation of this but haven’t been able to find anything. Would you be able to point me in the right direction?

    I'm particularly confused because in Help I read this:

    "The upper part of every document has a so called "tab" which holds the document title. "


    Thanks.
    •  
      CommentAuthorTylerGred
    • CommentTimeSep 24th 2009
     
    Under what circumstances would you use this feature? Sorry for my confusion.

    Perhaps in editing? Comparing re-writes?
    •  
      CommentAuthorjb
    • CommentTimeSep 24th 2009
     
    One example from a project I’m working on right now:

    I have the text of some footnotes in one document, the text to which these notes need to be added in another document, and a third document that contains text in Greek from which I need to draw now and then in revising.

    It’s easiest to have quick access to all three, but really the third I turn to only periodically. So two windows is fine, not to mention that three would be unsightly.

    Now Ulysses does have tabs and in many ways this is a decent substitute. I can switch back and forth among these three using tabs. But having worked with two windows in other apps, I’ve become used to it. It’s important to say, though, that those other apps don’t have tabs. So in practice the advantage there is perhaps even outweighed by Ulysses’ tabs. At least for me.

    Having split-screen with two documents is not a requirement for me—given that there are tabs. I was just trying to understand why it’s not possible to have both. Have to say that I still don’t understand, but perhaps some enlightenment will come my way ;-)

    Still wondering, e.g., how it’s possible for one tab to hold two documents? Is it?
    •  
      CommentAuthordirk
    • CommentTimeSep 25th 2009
     
    The two documents in one tab fehnman mentioned where for the hypothetical future version. Currently, it's not possible to have two different documents in the same tab.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfehnman
    • CommentTimeSep 25th 2009
     

    jb: What you describe can all be done in Ulysses. Write your text in the main editor. Place footnotes in the accompanying notepad. Select the Greek document in the browser (just select it, single-click) and check its contents in the preview.

    •  
      CommentAuthorjb
    • CommentTimeSep 25th 2009 edited
     
    Yes, thanks.
    It's in fact what I've been doing and does work fine.
    As I said, the tabs can also do roughly the same thing. So there are several ways.

    I was going to write that the only way to compare two documents efficiently would be to have two documents showing in two editor windows.
    Then I realized that closing the Preview pane and expanding the Notes pane makes it possible get two windows with whatever I want in them. So a little creativity manages to crack this nut for me, it seems.

    Thanks for all of your help.
    •  
      CommentAuthormax
    • CommentTimeSep 26th 2009
     

    We also have a nica feature called preview zoom. When you want to have two docs side by side, just click that little zoom button right above the preview pane. I'll put it to a size quite big enough to get a good glimpse at the document. Plus: It's very easy to switch to a different one. Maybe even easier than any tabbed solution.

    •  
      CommentAuthorjb
    • CommentTimeSep 26th 2009
     
    Ah. That's nice.

    Thanks.
    •  
      CommentAuthorsmolk
    • CommentTimeSep 27th 2009
     
    Yes, I really like this feature, and while I do not use it often, when I need it it's very practical because of the zoom.

    Sometimes it might be handy to have a second screen—like when you're working with large original sources. These could be displayed in another app if you have a second screen. I don't have one—opted for the 23" cinema display which I love, as it can display two A4 pages side by side (in Skim, usually).